Meteor's 2nd Life

You're listening to Syntax, the podcast with the tastiest web development treats out there. Strap yourself in and get ready. Here is Scott Tolinski

and Wes Bos. Welcome to Syntax. This is the podcast with the tastiest web development treats out there. Today, we've got a banger of a show for you. We are talking with Felipe Nivola. Probably butchered that, but he's here to talk to us about Meteor and, specifically, like, what's happened with Meteor in the last, I don't know, 6 months or so. Some pretty exciting stuff coming up. We all know Scott is number 1 Meteor fanboy, so, we've got some really good stuff for you today. We are sponsored by LogRocket, which does your client side session replay, and Sanity, which does all of your error and exception tracking.

So, Scott, welcome, and how are you doing today? Hey. Doing good. I'm highly caffeinated, and I'm ready to go. And we're talking about meteor. I love to talk about meteor. So I'm really super excited for this one and excited overall. Yeah. Just generally excited, you know, which is a good feeling in these in these current times. You know? So with us, as Wes mentioned, is Felipe Nivola, and I'm so sorry for this butchering. You said it's it's Portuguese.

So the Portuguese is not a language of mine that I'm I'm comfortable with. So welcome to the show, Felipe. Do you wanna give a little bit of a heads up about a background who you are, what you're doing currently, maybe what you've done in the past, or or what sort of stuff you like to work on. Just a quick little overview of of you and your work. Okay. Great. And what your pronunciation

was very good. Then I am Felipe Nava. It's a little bit different, but almost there.

I'm a developer for, like, 15 years. I Scott with c, c plus plus, like, Node challenge and in the university and so on. I even create a simulator with in the past what's crazy, and it's pretty hard to code with.

And then I was like Oh, my god. Jesus. A Java developer for many years, more than 10 years. And in the past years, like 5 years, I'm mostly using JavaScript professionally. And, also, like, I I really love to Node that I'm coding all the time in my side projects and also in my companies.

Cool. Right now, currently, you are what what is your role officially with Meteor? Officially, I am the major evangelist.

But then when I joined tiny, like, they asked help with this Node. That's the mutual evangelist, but I'm actually helping with more stuff internally, and and has has been great so far. Like, Wes for tiny with Mitra in the past, I believe, almost 9 months and has been a very good experience.

Cool. So, for those of you who haven't been paying attention, Meteor was owned and created by the Meteor developer group, and I I don't know the timeline for this. I don't know if you can fill in some of this stuff if you know the history.

The end of 2011.

I picked it up around 2011, around ish then when it was when it was, in its conception.

Really liked it. I've been using it ever since. LevelUp tutorials has been built on Meteor since 2000 and dang. I don't even know.

2013 or 2014. It's been on it for a long time. So I I've been in the community for for quite a bit of time. However so that was created by the Meteor developer group who currently owns and runs Apollo.

However, they last year, sometime mid last year, Wes acquired by a company Tiny.

Tiny owns Dribbble and a whole bunch of other stuff. It's a it's a company based out of Canada. So, Wes, up in your your territory, and they they own a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah. Proud Canadians. Yeah.

So briefly,

Felipe, do you wanna give, like, an overview of what exactly Meteor is? Yeah. Before we jump into this, I just want to also mention, like, my experience with.

Then I'm using probably since, like, 2012 or 13. I'm not sure because it's so long ago. They're like, I'm using Mitra for all these years, and I'm using, like, in my daily Bos, and I'm re building, like, real projects with these, putting projects in production.

Then it has been a a very great experience. And because of that, now I'm here as an evangelist. Because sometimes when you see an evangelist, you think the opposite. Right? Okay. Somebody hired this guy to talk good things about the technology or about whatever, but that's not the case. I was already pretty happy with Mitra. I was already working with Mitra, and then I sent an email to tiny, just a a quick background story. Say, okay. You acquired Mitra. How can I help? And then we start to exchange some emails, and in the end, I'm here. Like but but that's the story. I was a user That's a good lesson.

Yes. And I feel the pains. Like, I I know the pains of being in the other side of an open source project that has a company behind it. And I think that's also good, but I but what I always ask for the community, like, keeping giving me your honest feedback because maybe with time, I can lose a little bit this side of the pain. And then I I want to know what what's hurting right now. Like, how can I improve experience now that I am in the other side? But I'm still using feature, then I am in both sides.

Awesome. Yeah. I mean, you you were an evangelist before, and now you're getting paid for it. So that's like a fantastic little transition. Right? But it's also a good lesson to say like, hey. When we see these changes happen, like somebody acquire somebody or whatever, man, shoot your shot. Reach out. I know we talk about stuff like that all the time on this show.

Whatever. You mentioned, Wes, like, oh, Deno, Node exists. Oh, there might be a good opportunity to, you know, stake your claim into some being the Deno expert. You know? So let's give our background for our users who might not know anything about Meteor. Let's say you know that it exists, and maybe you you have some wrong ideas about what exactly it is. But do you wanna give, like, a quick overview of

what the heck Meteor is and why you might wanna use it? Meteor for me is a platform to develop and to deploy JavaScript apps of all size.

And I can try to break this a little bit.

Like, develop it. What I mean, we've developed with.

JS, like, is composed by 2 parts. We have the 1st part that are the packages that you can use to write your app. Then you can take advantage of code that others Yarn read. They have wrote in the past, then you can use this Node. And then provide a lot of good packages. And part of these packages, they are like the core of Meetup.

Then you you get get this for free. And they're like your web app. Like, you can think about express or your WebSocket connection if you want to use real time. Then JS this platform that provide these packages for you.

And, also, provides the a builder.

Then you don't need to use Webpack because has its own, bundler, and it compiles everything for you. And it works in a very, very nice way. Then you have this tool to develop your applications. But in the end, in the runtime, it's just a node application. That's also something that maybe some people are confused because they see and they see Node. And they don't know like, oh, they are the same. They are not the same. But is just Node code running also in the server. And when is running the client, it's just JavaScript code running in the client. Then it's not like a new language or a new, like, runtime for JavaScript. It's just a a bunch of code reading to help you to create node apps. That's the whole idea. And what I said that it's a platform to develop and also to deploy JavaScript app because Demeter JS a company, we also have a product that's called Galaxy Wes you can publish your code there. Then, of course, because the same company was behind these 2 products, the open source, that's the and the the cloud platform where you can deploy your Node. Everything was thinking was done thinking about.

Then we have, like, panels and dashboards with your connections, thinking about WebSockets.

You have a proxy layer with WebSockets in mind as well. Then that's the whole package.

That's why I'm calling, like, Mitre. It's a platform where you can develop apps and not only web apps. Mitre is also integrated with Cordova, and then you can also deliver apps in the stars using just Mitre in on JavaScript, and that's really powerful.

Just to confirm for, like, our listeners that haven't haven't used it before, like, it's obviously a, like, a full batteries included framework. That includes everything from database and API all the way to user accounts and auth and login. Right?

Yes. But you can also remove the batteries if you don't need don't want to use it. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. Or you can replace the batteries. Like, you can use with whatever you prefer.

Yeah. We actually use Mongoose as our database connection layer right now on Vercel up, which is, like, funny because it's like the meteor has their own Mongo thing, and then we're we're choosing to not use it if we don't want to. You know? And that's what I've always really liked about it. Yeah.

I mean, one thing I really liked about Meteor that I I'd like to maybe highlight here in this whole thing JS you you mentioned it's a build build tool. Right? So it builds your build build your code for you. I've never found a build tool that really is as simple as Meteor. Even Parcel isn't as simple as Meteor to build tool because, like, let's say, I wanna use Sass code in my Node, Meteor add the Sass package, SCSS package. Boom. It's in there. And then I don't have to I don't have to even type anything. I don't have to manually go in and and then add it in a plug ins config. I don't have to do anything. I just add the package, and Meteor is smart enough to know that I'm now using Sass. I can just start writing files.

It's even cool enough that, like, on top of that, it it there's, like, some eager eager loading of of certain directories, which we can talk about a little bit more. But, like, let's say, I wanted to just start prototyping some stuff out. I add the SASS package. I have a client folder. All I have to do is add a a SCSS file and start typing, and it automatically picks it up. Like, I don't have to import it anywhere. I don't have to load the file anywhere. It just picks it up. So there's a lot of, like, features around the build tool that just make it a really, like, simple experience, especially to, like, to get up and running quickly. It's one of my my favorite aspects about it. Okay. So we got a little brief overview. It's a a node node platform.

Felipe, you wanna add a little bit more onto that? One thing that I would like to to add is an analogy, like how to think about meter. Like, because right now, I know a lot of people that are listening to this. They are used to create React app concept and also view create concept.

Then for me, JS like the create app, React app, or the view client for any framework, for any, like, library that you want to use with JavaScript. Because you can run literally creates dash dash react or dash dash voo or dash dash Angular or dash dash whatever because you have a bunch of dash dash options that in the create command. And then you have your project already running and without any configuration. You can just type start typing the code. And this is really, really powerful, and I'm not talk just about the front chain. I'm talking about back end, front chain, and both are connected already. And I know that's a pain when you're using other platform that you need to think about 2 different piece. But in nature, they are the same piece. And I think later in this talk here, we are going to explain, like, how this can benefit you as a developer.

Totally. Yeah. I've always liked that too. In fact, when I start a new new project in other platforms and you have to think about, you know, the back end and the front end being separate, it's like only now with some things like these API routes with, like, Next. Js or I know Sapper has their own thing like that too.

Like, only now are we starting to see other platforms that, like, really do the same kind of thing that are not like Rails itself, you know, or or Django or one of those. But for me, it's, like, been so long where Meteor was, like, the only only show in town that wrapped up all that functionality, so I always been a big fan.

There's a a handful of misconceptions for people who have used Meteor in in the past or maybe were around when Meteor first launched.

Because when Meteor first launched, it didn't have a lot of it it wasn't necessarily full featured and wanted you to do a lot of things in the Meteor way. Didn't have Npm installs, which was kinda crazy to think about. And so now it's it's much more of a normal, like, node platform

media JS is like? I know we briefly talked about this. Yeah. I believe this is the first misconception. Like, usually people ask, like, can I use this Wes? And if you can use with Node or you can use it in the browser, basically, the answer would be yes almost all the time. Of course, if you have something very specific that's integrated with Webpack or another build tool, maybe you need to create a plug in. But, otherwise, the answer would be always Wes. You can use with. If it's Node or if it's JavaScript because is just these 2 together as well. Another misconception that's very common is like you can only use MongoDB.

And and that's not true at all nowadays because if you think about the background story that Scott told us, like, the company behind Apollo was the same company behind Mitre. And, like, they are creating Apollo. And the Mitre development group nowadays, they still have Mitre apps, and they are using Apollo with. And, of course, if you know GraphQL and you know Apollo, you know you can connect any database with Apollo, with GraphQL because it's just like a query language connecting your server and your client. Then you can connect with GraphQL warp you can connect with Wes, whatever data pattern that you want. Or Mongoose. Or Mongoose.

Yeah. Then that's another misconception that's that's very popular, but it's not true. But in the beginning, it was like this because the whole idea was about real time. Then we could have a data in your Mongo, and you could have the same data in your browser.

Mitra has a a library that's called MiniMongo that runs inside your browser, And it's really powerful and it's really cool because you can just write data in in one side and see in the other side. It's very magic.

And but you don't need to use it. Like, if you don't want to use it, you don't need to use MiniMongo. It's you can think about MiniMongo as Apollo cache or any client side cache. But MiniMongo is very simple to publish data because it's just like like a mirror of your database in the server, and you can query this database in the same way. That was the the whole magic of feature in the past. But right now, we still have a lot of companies, a lot of users using this way, but Wes also have a lot of companies just using GraphQL or using as a ESLint point. Then it's it's not tied to MongoDB anymore.

Yeah. And it you know, so level of tutorials for a long time was built using the PubSub and MiniMongo, and I really loved it. And and it's so funny because, like, now I'm on Apollo because I I wanted to get on things a little bit more, I don't know, like type safe or I like the GraphQL way of doing things.

But I recently started this new tutorial series on Svelte and Meteor, and I'm like I'm re falling in love with the, whole mini Mongo flow of doing things where it's like, oh, this is so nice to to publish the data, to to then just run essentially like a DB call on the client Node. And it's such a a nice way of doing things that I I I do. I I miss I miss doing it that way. And I'm really specifically within Svelte, I'm really excited to just see how simple and powerful the code is. So very big fan of that. I think there's also some misconceptions about performance in Meteor. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that? Yep. And it's also good to remember what I said in the beginning about Node. Js. Like,

is just a Node. Js layer.

And then if you if you think about performance, you should try to think about Node. Js. Like, will have the same performance because it's just Node code running the server. But, of course, you can choose features. Like, if you want to have a subscription, as Scott was saying, like, I want to have the same data in the server and the same data in the client, and I I want this data to be synced automatically. And does that extremely Wes. But, of course, you need to pay the price. Right? Because you want to keep the state in the server.

So every time something change in your database, you want to synchronize.

Then this has a Scott, like but but if you want to implement this in your Node, you're probably going to spend more memory and more CPU than because has been doing this for, like, 9 years. And, of course, the code has improved a lot. And besides that, then that's a it's a scaling issue if you don't take a few precautions.

But also right now, we have a lot of optimizations in the community that a lot of companies are using, like reds upload.

You can connect reds just by adding a and everything will be better. It it's not like the scalable as hell because, of course, you have other limitations, but it will be a lot better because red dot block can provide you a lot of benefits in the way to notify that that are new chains and then the way the feature will reach this change and publish to the clients. It's like it's not true. Like, feature can't scale, and we have many companies on Galaxy. We we run a few thousands of apps on Galaxy running, and they have a lot of people using it. Then it's it's not true, but, of course, if you have if you want to have very powerful features, sometimes these features will have a cost in the server side. Sometimes these features will have a cost in the client side. It's just about trade offs and not about limitation.

Totally. Yeah. I think that's important. Node of the things that, like, really bugs me, I see this maybe more than anybody. Maybe not as much as maybe you, Felipe. But I see this maybe more than anybody because every time I publish, like, a new Meteor tutorial, people will be on, like, YouTube and say, like, oh, meteor. That's a word I haven't heard in a very long time. And I'm just, like, oh, shut up. Like, it makes me so annoyed.

What do you have to say, like, for those kind of people who who think that meteor has just not existed for, you know, 5 years here or something and how they launched and then and failed because it's been it's been around. There's been an active community. Right? Like, for me, it's funny because every time I also post a video or something, people ask, like, is Mitch your dad?

Like, of course not. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Video. I mean, talk about Mitch here. Like, we have a big community.

Like, we have half a million of developers that use feature. Like, it's a lot. Like, we have a lot of audience. Like, people are following feature and using the tools. Then, of course, is not there. But what I have for these people, like, I am not angry. Like, I just think it's funny to to listen this question. But, like, right now, like, today, the day that we are recording, we are very up to date with Node. Js. We are using the latest Node. Js. We are up to date if you want to use the Mongo part with MongoDB, then you can use all the features of MongoDB.

We are also up to date with Cordova. They like JS a very live project, and you can use with TypeScript.

You can use with React, with Vue, with Svelte, with Elm, with Angular. Like, we've Wes can use with any tool that you like in in your in your front end environment or your Node environment.

And, also, as Scott said, like, the community of Mitre, I think that's the big.

Like, the community's huge, and it's very good because sometimes the community can be huge, but the community is not helping or the community, is not engaged enough. But Mitre community, these guys are amazing. Like, what they are doing like, I have a guy that I would like to highlight here that's the his nickname is Southern. Like, he's doing a lot of great work for a beautiful performance. Awesome. Yeah. Even I have a few spoiler here.

I spoiler about hot Node replacement.

I just Wes a few brains from southern and hot mod replacement is coming. And then, like, we had this from the community, and this is amazing. Then, like, if you haven't seen for a long time, you should check check it out our repository.

We have a road map there. Then you can see our vision for the future. Also, the PRs and the code issues, we are replying as fast as possible. We are merging PRs, like, almost every week. We have releases almost every month. Then it's that's what I can say, like, Mitra is is pretty alive.

So I yeah. I think that's really important. I think that was one of the reasons why people felt like Meteor was dead for so long is because even though there was development, it's like, Meteor was constantly adding new features and new updates, and the very fantastic Ben Newman was, like, doing so much amazing work on Meteor over the course of the past few years. But MDG and the powers that be that owned Meteor just did not care to talk about it. They didn't share it. They didn't have a road map. They occasionally released blog posts here and there, but they did absolutely nothing to really, like, push it forward in the, you know, the worldview of people who who saw it. So it largely felt like it was stagnant or not changing. Meanwhile, there's a ton of new additions being added to it and ton of new features constantly being, you know, being poured in the media, but I don't know. There's no, like, vocal promotion of it in any sort of way. And that was, like, really frustrating as a fan of it because you see all this new new stuff coming in and, you know, there is no visibility for the the outside community of, like, what's going on here.

I'm interested in, like, how do you actually use this thing, having never used Meteor myself, and and you you saying, like, oh, yeah. You can use it in Angular or Vue or React or or whatever it is that you want. So the client side aspect of Meteor, is it simply just a JavaScript library that you then subscribe to to data, and then when that data changes, it gets piped in? Is it necessary to have, like, adapters for different different frameworks? Or or how does that work? Maybe maybe

focus on React or or or Vue since that's what our our audience is probably most familiar with. Great question. And, actually, you don't need to think about Meteor at all. Like, you the only part that you need to think about Meteor is the entry point. Like, we have 2 ways to have an entry point for the client side. You can defining your package in a few that's called main module, and then you can say, okay. My main module for the client is this file, and you just put the path there. That's one way. The other way, you can just create a client folder, a folder that's named client, and then you can just put some files there and meet your results. So Wes start to load from this folder. Then and that's it. Like, you can put inside this folder or inside this entry point any code that you want. Even if you just want to to use the query and then you can just try to write to your DOM, that's fine. That's going to work. And in React works exactly like this. You just put, the React render first function there, and you provide the 1st component that you want, your root component, and that's it. Besides that, you just need to put also an HTML there. If you want to put something in the header or if you want to put something in the body, like, you you put a HTML file in the same entry points that I mentioned, and that's it. Then we are ready to go. You can use any framework. Of course, if you're a framework, you have a template library and you need a special compiler for this template library. Maybe you need to write a plug in.

But usually, you don't need to to do anything.

Okay. So but how how does the data get from Meteor into your React application?

Okay.

Then we are going to the data layer. Like, then you can choose again whatever you want. And maybe that's a a weakness of because it's so open, then maybe it's harder if you're just start to to make these decisions because you can do whatever you want. But if you create if you let give it this example. You TypeScript dash dash react, and you choose your name like my app. Then you have a red setup for you 2 pieces. The client side, as I said to you, very simple. Just react code there, and you also have the server Node, set up for you using Mongo, using collections. That's the name of the package feature.

Then you can publish this data. Then you can use the feature publish function, and you just return a Mongo cursor like activities Scott find, and that's going to return activities for the mini Mongo. Then in the client, as you're used to nowadays in React, you can just use a hook that's called use tracker.

Tracker is the is this idea of real time data and also, reactivity, then you can have updates all the time for free, basically. Then this hook, you can write again the same function, and you can even use the same code to find the activities because the activities will pop up in your mini Mongo, in your client, and the activity will be there because you published these activities.

Then that's it. You can list activities. And if you type right now, if you stop this this audio and you go to your terminal and you install and you run Node commands, this is exactly what's going to happen. And this part is the magic that you just publish all the data from the server to the client. And if you don't want to to do that, and usually you don't want to want to choose whatever you want to publish from the server to the client, you can call the function subscribe.

This function subscribe, you can ask specific data. You can pass, like, some parameters to filter in the server, and then you can publish specific data. But, basically, you can you just need to use a hook, and then you need to publish the data. But it's a React hook as any other React hook that you have available. Oh, yeah. That's I like that a lot. It doesn't, like, shoehorn you into a specific way of coding, but there's lots of options. And you could pretty easily add this to an existing application as well, it seems like.

Yep. And you could also have placed this hook with use query from Apollo or using mutation from Apollo. The code would be the same.

But you just use a different hook, then you get the data in a different way, and you interact with the data in a different way.

Yeah. And and I posted, like, a little code snippet of use tracker in the show notes. So if you wanna check that out, it will be there.

It is it is as simple as really just a used tracker. And then inside of there, subscribing to the data, running that mini Mongo query, and then returning that data. Like, that's it. And in fact, in Svelte, it's even easier because Svelte has a a really neat PubSub kind of thing on the front themselves in terms of, like, subscribing to, oh, I Wes, it's not PubSub, but, like, in terms of, like, subscribing to data. But you don't even need, like, this whole use tracker business. You just do, like, dollar sign the thing equals and then a, Mongo query essentially.

It's so cool that it, like, it works very, very simple. It's like a one line of code, to to get some data in your your Svelte site.

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I think we've we've largely touched on some of this stuff already, but I think it might be worth reiterating here. What what do you feel like the ideal use case for Meteor is? Like, let's say, like, I'm a developer.

I have some React skills or I have some few skills. Why would I like, what what's the situation that I would, say, okay. Now now maybe I should think about using Meteor?

Let's rephrase your question in a different way. Like, what are the case that you should not use Meteor? Because is so flexible that maybe it's easier to respond this way. Like, I personally, I would not use Meter for a simple Scott website.

Like, I think we have amazing tools right there, out there nowadays that you can use, like Gatsby, even Next. Js, or you name it. You have great tools. I think there is one more that's very popular that I'm missing right now. But I I would not use Mitre to create just a static website because one of the power Vercel features of Mitre is that you have your server and your client side together. They are not together because they are not deploying the same place, but you can use them together in a nice way. And if you just want to, like, a simple step page, you don't need that. Then I I don't think it's a good use of Mitre. But even though some people really like Mitre a Scott, and they create a project that's called Mitre client bundle that can really create this for you Bos on a mutual project. But I I don't think it's the best choice. I think we have better choice for for popular for, like, simple websites. But in the other case, like complex applications or social applications or whatever you need real time, like, JS a great choice. Like, if you are going to write just a few line of of Node and you can have subscriptions and you can have a lot of a lot of options. If you have, like, more needs, like, for relationships, very hard to do data fetching, a lot of joins or this this kind of work. I would also use meter, but I use meter in combination with Apollo or other GraphQL library because GraphQL is a very nice way to define your data, your models.

And Node one use case that I really love about and I already built a whole app just using this is Wes you have, like, simple needs, maybe a simple app that you want to create, I just go with blank method.

Method methods is a way that you call basically a function using a string as a name, and the data comes from the server. Then you can just ask like, oh, get my, list of activities again. And then you just pass a string, and in the server, you just return your list of activities. And JS going to serialize to do all the hard work for you. Keep the types. Keep the the the complex types that you can have on MongoDB, and that just works. Then it's it's very cool for simple apps, for complex apps, but I don't think it's the best choice for simple static web page.

Yeah. I would agree. If you're doing anything real time and you're you plan on using, like, a node thing, that's really where it, like, super shines. Like, it's super duper fantastic easy for that. I I'm not a fan of doing real time with anything else, but it's Scott, like, limited to real time. You know? I think that was, like, maybe a misconception too is that if you're doing Meteor, you are doing real time. Like, we don't do real time anything on LevelUp, and it's perfectly good for us. So okay.

Now let's let's turn it into, like, maybe a little bit less positive territory. And, like, let's talk a little bit about why Meteor I don't wanna say it failed, but, like, why the hype was so hot when it first dropped and then, like, dissipated pretty quickly.

Like, do you have, like, a a good understanding of why exactly Meteor did not continue to maintain its hype cycle or why why it was really hyped up and then less hyped up almost immediately afterwards?

Yeah. I believe Meteor was ahead of its time, and that was really shocking when people saw, like, in 2011, 2012, a way to publish data that easily, and that was the reason for this hype. And I think it was justified. Like, it was a very good technology, and it's too a very good technology. But as you said, like, I was not in this site in the past that it's I'm kind of in a weird spot because everything that I say Yeah. I'm I'm I'm not I'm not saying about myself that it's it's hard to to say bad things about others. But I think it Wes just a matter of focus. Like, because the people behind Mitre development group, they are really, really smart people and very good people. Like, everybody knows that. But they are focusing a different layer. Like JS a solution for the front end, for the back end, and even for the data layer, and they choose to just work in the data layer. That's the Apollo. And then they start to to change the company direction, and that, of course, affect nature. Like, it's like if you have a company and you have 1 product and then you decide to create a second product, of course, you're going to focus more in 1 product. Or most of the companies, of course, companies like Google, they have multiple products. But most of the companies, they focus on just 1 product, and then we start to lose traction. And, also, we have this misconception of JS is is good for prototypes, and I think that's that's really wrong because business, and you can check our website, our showcase there. A lot of real companies doing real business with.

But that was because is so that maybe some people are afraid to take that serious. Like, oh, but that's so wiz. That is must be something wrong with this. I think that's all was also something at this time. Totally.

Yeah. And from my perspective too, when people jumped in the media for the first time, back when it first came out, people were concerned and maybe a little unhappy that it didn't have one, like, proper NPM support for packages when it, like, hit version 1, I think. It didn't it didn't. And 2, it didn't have like, so you had to use a media wrapper for every single node package, which obviously is is not a good way to do things and has been long since dropped. Right? But, 2, also, I noticed that people were really upset that everything at version 1 was eagerly loaded. Everything was eagerly compiled and loaded in a way that there were no imports and almost everything Wes, like, sort of global. And while that was like a really fantastic imports. It was still not scalable.

That normal like, if you were trying to build a large website, having not having imports really sort of limits the amount of control you have over things. So I think those 2 things really threw people off. But Meteor added those pretty quickly afterwards, and I think if they would have dropped version 1 with NPM support and with a proper, like, import module system, people would have been probably a lot happier with Meteor overall and maybe less inclined to dismiss it as being like a prototyping tool. That that's, to me, JS, like, maybe one of the problems is that Meteor might have launched too early with version 1. Maybe it wasn't baked enough. But I think we need to understand here about timing because Npm

is the standard way to to do modules with JavaScript. But at that time, it was not the case. Like, I think Wes released in 2010.

Then it was pretty early. And, like, it it was a lot of discussion, like, what's the best way to use Node to use modules in general in JavaScript. Then come up with its own solution. That's, oh, it's called.

That's very similar to NPM and maybe even inspired Npm in some ways.

And and then it's it's this weird spot where now it's JS to say like, oh, that was a bad call. We should wait a little bit and integrate it with Npm. But at the time, maybe Wes would have done the same.

I'm not sure.

Totally. And and I was immature enough as a a developer in the sense to personally, like, not understand those criticisms. Like, I could understand the npm one because, obviously, it was a pain in the butt. But, like, the eager loading and the imports thing, I remember being like, why would you wanna write all this extra code to make it more difficult for yourself when everything's global and easy? And then, like, obviously, now that my application is scaled and and things overall have changed. Right? I I've been singing a little bit different of a tune where I I love my imports.

I definitely understand what you're saying, though, because it it was very true. Like, how many applications were people writing that were, like, using that style of imports? And even there was no create React app. There was no no such thing as Parcel. Webpack was like, I don't think Webpack existed. It might have been in its infancy.

I don't really know the history of Webpack, but it certainly wasn't popular to the degree it was. People were like, I came from Gulp and Grunt to Meteor directly with Node steps in between, And I think that's where a lot of people were in terms of these style applications.

And then we've talked a little bit about Meteor's past, Meteor's present. Do we wanna talk a little bit about Meteor's future? So Meteor has some new owners, which is [email protected].

You can see their designer news, Dribbble, Ride Node. Wes, you Ride Home, you might remember Capital now owns Meteor. That happened sometime last year. Do you wanna talk a little bit about maybe that transition, why it happened, what happened, and what's tiny doing in the future of Meteor looking like?

Tiny's CEO is Andrew, and and Andrew, I think he saw an opportunity. Like, MDG was changing the focus to Apollo, and then Andrew took advantage of this change, and he basically bought.

And includes the open Node and also the Galaxy. That's the hosting platform that has.

And then, like, from now on, I think it was, like, August last Yarn, and then later in November, I joined. And then we we start to to build this new era of feature, and then we start to update a lot of the components.

And what I see for the future and what I can talk about tiny JS, like, tiny is really, like, interested in helping MITRE because tiny is a group of companies, and I only have, like, good influence from tiny. Like, tiny is really concerned about keeping mature ecosystem healthy and that mature, can grow and get have resources to grow in the both sides, like in the open source side and in the in the Galaxy side. And that's also very important for me because I don't want a company that is not hoping for the best of the open source or not hope for the best for the other side. And that's even a little bit crazy. I think about it because if you buy a product, you want to to to make this product great, to improve this product because you are putting a lot of money there. Then that's an important aspect that some people in the comment were at was ESLint. Like, oh, tiny Wes to grow mature, tiny wants mature to be better. Of course, they have to be a lot of money there. Node buys something to Yeah. To kill. Then it's it's not the idea, and Tiny is is doing this. We have also Andrew Dumont. That's another Andrew. We have 2 Andrews. That's the CEO of Mitre Software. That's the new company behind Mitre. The Mitre development group is not the company name anymore. The company now is named MITRE Software, and this company has an, CEO that's called Andrew Dumont.

And we also have a guy. We also have engineer. And by the way, we are hiring in this moment. We have another engineer position opening, and that's pretty cool because we are growing our team. And what I see for the future of is that tiny and software company is going to invest more money on. We are going to keep resources on, and we are going to keep growing Galaxy because Galaxy in the last 3, 4 months, we released a lot of new features, a lot of great features like outscaling.

You can just deploy your app. And if you start to have a lot of scale, a lot of connections, your app can start another container, and it can also scale down automatically later. And as you charge by hour, that's great because if you're a business, you just have busy hours at night. You can pay, like, a minimum fee just to have your app running, and then in the night, you can scale up, and that's pretty cool. And in the future, I see more features and even more advanced features like this.

And also in the open source side, what I see is, like, better tree shaking, that code elimination, Node replacement. As I said, I just test today a PR, and it's working really well already. And we also want to improve the build times and keep delivering whatever the community of Mitre is asking for because that's the it's the whole idea of tiny tool, to be there for the mutual community, to provide feedback, and to improve what you have right now. And we are a very stable platform. That's also important because right Node, with JavaScript in this crazy world that we have, like, every day, something new is is is coming up. But, if you have a project from, like, 8 years ago, it's very likely that just with, like, 10 or 20 minutes, you can run it again in the latest because we don't have almost any breaking change in this 8 years. And we of course, you need to update also your NPM dependencies. Maybe you need to to do some tweaks in your code because of the Node improvements.

But in general, your code JS going to work exactly the same, and that's very rare. Like, we have even new software, new libraries that from each month, it's you need to rewrite your code to keep running it. Then that's not the point with meter. Wes want to have a stable platform for the next years.

Yeah. I've been a big fan of that non breaking changes aspect of it for a long time.

Like you mentioned, the meteor has never been the problem. If there's been a problem, it's been, you know, one of my packages needing to meaning, meaning, meaning, meaning to rewrite things so they're I don't wanna call out React Router because that's the the joke one that, like, everyone talks about React router updating all the time. But, it's usually something like that that that's the that's the problem.

So oh, yeah. I should I should do JS a little side note here. Meteor Galaxy, if it wasn't clear, is is a hosting platform owned by Meteor to host node apps, but it is not the only option for hosting Meteor. You can host Meteor anywhere that you can host a node app. There are, like, community run efforts to make hosting easier or more efficient via other platforms, whether or not it's a build pack for Heroku or is it Meteor Up, also known as MUP? MUP is a community package, led to get easy deployments going, and those were all really great efforts, that have been evolving over time.

Mupp was one of those packages that, like, was a little frustrated. It's like actually I don't wanna call out Mupp because it was the reason why I moved to Galaxy because it was like MUP was so iffy at the time, but that was years years years ago. And it is a it's got a fancy new website. It's had a lot of work into it. It looks fantastic now. So I I think Mupp has gone through a a great evolution as well. For those of you who have ever used it before, you might wanna check it out again. And that's also very important for Mitre because you need to remember, like, we have the business aspect of Mitre that's Galaxy, and that's also important

because that's where the money is coming from. Then if you have more clients, you can support more Meet your development.

But, also, nobody wants to use a platform that you can just run-in a single provider. Right? Then that's not the case with totally because in the end, when you run, you just have a node project. Like, you don't have that project in the end. Like, the final artifact is just a node project that you as Scott said, you can run whatever you want to run a node project. And that that's the beauty of it. Like, you can support Mitra as well running on Galaxy, and it's also good because we have great features. But if you don't want that, that's not a problem. You can use Mitra in the same way for free, and you can deploy whatever you want your code. Awesome.

Also awesome is one of our sponsors. That's bad transition, but, hey, I did it. And, one of the sponsors is Sanity. Our this this Sentry actually works very nicely with, with our other sponsor, LogRocket. And do you wanna talk about Sanity, Wes? I know that I usually do the Sentry, but do you wanna give it a a a whirl? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've been using Sentry on my both on my Node application as well as in the

client side JavaScript for my application as well just to collect all the information about what went wrong, stack traces, browsers, cross project issues, all things like that. It's it's really cool. It hooks up to your your GitHub. So, basically, you just install this thing into your application, and then it will start to listen for, specific errors, which is really cool because there's not a whole lot of, like, setup that you need to to get Sentry up and running. You just install it, and anytime an error is thrown in your application, it will collect all the data that's need. You can go a little bit further and attach things like user IDs to specific sessions so that if there is a user, if something goes wrong, you can actually track it down to the specific user that happened, which is pretty cool. It works with all the different languages, JavaScript, Python, Ruby, Node, Go, Android, a whole bunch more, as well as all the frameworks, React, Django, Meteor, I bet, Rails. It it doesn't have to it doesn't matter, which which framework it is because it works with all of the different languages, and it just just works from there on out. So check it out. Century.io.

Use the coupon code Sanity treat for 2 free months. Thanks so much to Century for sponsoring.

Cool.

Yeah.

1 question I have is around, serverless. So does like, as serverless becomes more popular, it becomes a a really neat way to both host your entire application as well as maybe just specific parts of your application can be thrown into a serverless function. Is there any plans or ideas around integrating that into Meteor?

Scott not at the moment because it it's it's quite simple to to create a new feature app. And a few companies are using feature, not in a serverless way, but you can deploy, like, your server side code.

And and in multiple instances, maybe you you can split your app, like, in a a in a microservice approach because it's very easy to start up a new project, and you don't need to configure anything basically on most major projects. Then but it's not like a serverless approach. And JS I said, like, usually, meet the benefits used both together. But, of course, you can just use the client Node, and you have support for that. But I I I don't see right now, like, how are you going to benefit from from this, like, the idea of serverless.

I think Mitra is more, a good fit if you want to have everything connected in a very, very easy way. And maybe later, if you need to extract some functions to a separate function that what I do, like if you need to alumna to process a s three file. But usually, I like the idea to have a real back end application.

Yeah. Do you wanna talk about any, like, little known features that people might not know that Meteor can do or Meteor's build tool can do? I have 1 in mind if you don't hit it. But JS there any any, specific things that you think that might wow people that they don't know about? Yeah. That that is one that I think it's very important for

Wes you need to run your app in these low low device, like phone, cell phones that are very cheap, and that's called part.

Nesting part was a proposal for TypeScript.

I don't know exactly what's the stage of this proposal right now, but supports this already. And it's pretty cool because, basically, what you can do, you don't need to evaluate your code before you need your code. Then you can think about in parts as variable Wes you try to reduce the scope as much as possible. In which that Mhmm. We can improve a lot the startup time of your application. Because if you have a lot of JavaScript code Wes you're running a low divide a slow device, it's going to take a few seconds maybe to load. But if you are not really parsing the code, you are just loading the code, that's going to be much faster. Then it's a it's a very nice feature that's in the compiler and not in the runtime system, but that I really like about. And that helped me to create native apps that have better performance, better good time, and and it's pretty cool.

Yeah. It is it is pretty cool.

And it Wes, like, one of the first platforms to really have it. I remember when React loadable came out, like, supported that day 1, and that Wes, like, a really nice experience to have, like, React loadable and dynamic import sort of like I felt like almost before anybody else had them. It it was very nice feeling.

There's a lot of things like that, but I felt like we got really early, like a sync await and whatever. But you know that that's a it's a different feature that you're a major, Scott, but they are good together. Oh, really? Like, nested in part is just you statically can put in part anywhere in your Node. Anywhere inside a function.

And it's not going to not deliver this piece of code, which Yarn also support that, and that's called dynamic import. But important is not to avoid delivering Node to the client JS to avoid the evaluation of this code, and that can really improve their performance. Like, you have a function, and maybe you have an if condition there. And in this if condition, you need to load a huge library. Like, you don't need to even evaluate this library until you reach this if condition. That's really powerful.

I don't think I wow. I don't think I've seen this. How come I've seen this? I've never used this. So this is nested imports. I think you guys gotta make a a bigger deal about this in the in the Meteor guide. I don't even see this. I see this in the migrating 1.4.

Somebody's gotta add something about that there. Yeah. Because I didn't even know that was a thing. I would like

to to post pretty soon, like, a case about how I how you can optimize apps using Wes and new parts. It's it's most important for native apps because when you are running computers today, like, the computers are pretty fast. But when you are running an edge device, sometimes, like, the mobile, they are limited. Yep. Interesting.

Cool. So, I guess the one thing I was thinking about Wes, like, the ability to serve different, like, bundles to different browsers. Like, that was a big one for me that I think Meteor did way, way first, and nobody talked about it. So do you wanna talk about that?

We call this evergreen. That is a great post by the great Ben Numo explaining all the details about it. But the idea is that in any browser that your client wants to use, it's going to work because as has both sides, as I said, we are going to say explain about this. Like, we know the server side and you know the client side. Then when a request comes from a ESLint side, know how to understand this Wes, and he can respond with the appropriate bundle. Like, if he it's a modern browser, Mitcher is going to deliver some, like, TypeScript 5 features. If not, Meteor is going to deliver, legacy browser with a lot of bundle.

Then it's pretty cool because you don't need to use all the time in modern browser. That usually what you need to do. But as have the control in the both sides, it can choose whatever is the best bundle for each specific client. And this is is really great for your clients because they can use old browsers, and you don't need to worry about these 2 bundles because does that automatically for you. Yeah. So, basically, you get you get smaller code for the browsers that support newer features, and I think that's like it's it's effortless too. I didn't have to do anything to do that. You know? Node in the same top, like, Mitra also produce a different bundle for Cordova.

And I don't know if you know Cordova, but Cordova is a nice way to embed your web application in an HV app. And Cordova provide bridge that you can call the Node as well. And Cordova is updated with Bos and Android platforms.

And then you can just with 1 command, you can run your app in a simulator or in an actual device. And just with JS any other, you can also build the apps. And we are preparing a lot of tutorials and a lot of guides for you to do this very easy. Then if you're planning to release a native app or a web app, but you want to also have the app natively in the stars, you should check out.

So, yeah, I we I I haven't actually done any Cordova myself, but we had on the show to talk about Missive, and his app was built in backbone.

And he used Cordova, right, to to publish his native apps?

That was the case, Wes? Yeah. It was pretty cool. The whole app is built in a single codebase, and it felt so slick.

It blows my mind because I use missive every day, and I could have never told you that was a web app. I thought it was a native app. So that got my wheels turning to say, like, like, because I always thought Cordova was a little bit of like a a toy. Right? It's a toy. It's a WebView, whatever. But, no, it's not. It's it's very full powerful. And after after using Missive for so long and knowing that it's and then finding out it's Cordova, I was like, wow. Cordova JS powerful. It's much more powerful than I I gave it credit for. And I I I definitely wanna take a look at that now that I I know I can just build the Cordova. The web is powerful, I Wes, you mean to say. Yeah. Wes, you know what? Okay. Don't don't put words in my mouth here. The web is powerful. Okay? Web is very powerful.

I'm very a big fan of the web. Trust me. So, yeah, I I don't know. I wanna I wanna get those tools. I've actually, one of the things I had a concern was that LevelUp tutorials. Like, the mobile experience, for me, didn't feel like a mobile app. So I didn't wanna publish it feeling like a website. So I've been recently pushing out a lot of, like, a tab bar at the bottom and and and tweaking those things to make it feel more native. I definitely plan on checking out some of those Cordova features ASAP. And also you could have, like, a PWA,

an HV app in the same code base just using, and that's that's pretty cool. And you have apps that are doing this. Like, I have my own apps doing this. I have an ecommerce website in Brazil that does that. And, also, you can check our showcase and you're going to see there. There is a company that's called that's doing, like, incredible event apps just using Meetcher, and they can create multiple native apps for different conference, and it's it's really, really great.

Cool. Yeah. I thought this was really great. If it seems like I'm, you know, advertising for Meteor here or something, it's just that I've been using Meteor for so long, and I really have loved it for so long. I've been dying to talk about it on this show, and so I'm so glad that we get we were able to have Lee Bey on to talk about the the current status of Meteor. I'm I'm so excited for Meteor's growth and future and, just I'm I'm just I'm pumped to talk talk about it. So it's not the caffeine talking. It is my genuine excitement talking here. So now is the part of the show where we talk about sick picks. These are picks that we have found that they're just something that we think is sick. It could be literally anything. I'm I I just ate a peach Bobo bar. Bobos are from Boulder, Colorado. I would sick pick this if I could if I knew that most of you could get these things because they're fantastic.

But my sick pick today is going to be the Amplify Alien. In full disclosure, they sent me one of these things. Man, this is a Wi Fi 6 router that that looks like I don't even know how to describe how this thing looks like. It's got an underglow on it. It's a tube. So sick. Yeah. Touchscreen.

It's it's very sick looking. In fact, when I took a touchscreen.

It's constantly telling me my network speeds.

It touchscreen that's constantly telling me my network speeds.

It is very, very fast, and I have, I have gigabit Internet at my house, so I'm, like, able to push out Wi Fi 6 speeds, which are crazy fast up to 7,600 megabits per second.

Yeah. I've got one of these things set up, and I am loving it. It is the coolest router I have ever owned, and I'm so excited to have it. The app is very fantastic as well. Wes, I know you've had a quite a bit of experience with Ubiquiti yourself, but this is my 1st product of theirs, and, man, I am impressed. I'm very impressed. It's fantastic.

Yeah. It's it's like next level. I've I've had the just the regular Amplify at my house for a long time, and I've got the UniFi stuff here at my cottage. And I also got the the alien.

I installed it at my dad's house. And, man, we we'd, like, threw 2 of his old Linksys writers out that barely covered the whole house. And just this one thing. And it's beautiful. Like, he he put it on the bookshelf. He cut a little he cut a little, like, a hole in the back of the bookshelf so he could just, like, have it with no wires.

Just hanging out. And they just updated it so that the screen on the front will give you all kinds of information about download, clients, and things like that. The How many devices are coming up to them? Gushing. We I got 1 I got mine free as well, like, full disclosure, but, like, the Ubiquiti gear is top notch.

Yeah. Sorry. If this is coming off as an advertisement, again, it's like, if I would have paid full price for this thing, I would've been feeling the same. I'm gonna show my my speeds right here to the camera. I'm currently getting, 600 up and 700 or 700 up and six 100 down. So,

just to, yeah, just to give you an idea. Wi Fi 6 is what we've got.

I'm so sorry, Wes.

Oh, that is so that's unreal that you can get that on your phone over Wi Fi.

Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's crazy. The future is good. I'm gonna sick pick an app that I've sick picked before and just got a bit of an update. It's called Parcel App, and this is not the JavaScript bundler. This is a app for your desktop and for your your, I think, iPhone and Android, And it does all of your tracking. So you throw out a tracking number in there for a package and it will detect usually the shipper.

And then it'll give you updates as to where it's at. And you could filter for delivered. And you never have to, like, go and find the email or bookmark the app, and it will just show you all the updates as to where your stuff is.

And Node cool thing is that, like, I have Amazon and a bunch of other places I order from frequently. I have a Gmail rule set up and to automatically forward the emails, like, whatever has shipped, and then it will automatically add it to to your end. I've been doing that for years now. And recently, Amazon stopped putting the name of the product that is being shipped in the in the shipped emails because, apparently, Google and other companies are scraping people's email to figure out, like, who's selling what and who's buying what. So Amazon stopped putting that info in the email. And then this this trick that I've used is not working as good. And they recently are they're in beta testing right now, and I'm a beta tester of, like, an Amazon integration. So you sign in to Amazon via an Iframe in the app, and then it will pull the information about what has actually shipped. Otherwise, you just like product 749 has shipped. You know? I don't know what that is.

Big fan of this app. I've been using it for Yarn. And anytime there's a bump like this, like something happens, the developer works hard on it. So parcelapp.net.

Cool. Yeah. I just I I'd never heard of this. I just downloaded it. So they got one.

Felipe, what you got?

My sick peak should be Galaxy because I'm using Galaxy for many years on all my major apps. You can save a ton of money with Galaxy because we will not spend time with DevOps as we have 1 command deploy. The only configuration that you need is your Mongo URL if you're using Mongo.

We also have out Scott that it can save money again because you just need to run many containers if you have many people in your app, and this is done by triggers for you.

We have integrated APM. We have Deno time of dates, notifications, proxy layer, just customize it for major Wes sockets.

And you can use for free for 30 days up to 4 gigabytes.

That means that you can run 8 containers or 4 containers depending on the size or 2 containers.

You that's your choice. Anyway, Galaxy is great, but my sick peak will be a little bit unusual, I believe. My sick peak will be. I don't know if you have heard this word before, but is a drink. It's actually from Paraguay, but Brazil is close to Paraguay, then I I have this. I use I drink, like, every day, all the time. I'm How do you spell this? It's t e r e, and it's it's pretty great. It's like a cold tea. It's like a green tea. And I think you can order it on Amazon because you can buy anything on Amazon. It's Yerba mate. Yeah. It's the cold one. I used to drink a lot of hot Yerba mate, but this is cool. I gotta get into the Yeah. You should try. Like, I think I'm a best beta developer because of.

Wes.

How do how do you make this? It's iced. So you just brew it like a tea?

Yeah. No. You like, the the herb is just fresh. Not not fresh. It's dry, but you just put the herb in the cup, and you have this special straw that's called It's called bomba. Bomba. Okay. Go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But bomb is the same word for bomb. Right. Then I don't want to translate Bos here. Maybe you'll get banned this Node.

But but it's you just put there there, and you just put cold water, very cold water because in Brazil, usually, it's very hot, and then you drink it. It's cool.

Yeah. See that you can do yeah. You can do cold brew.

Yeah. I I'm a huge Sanity the I mean, a big fan of yerba mate for a long time.

I'd never made my own cold one. I only ever bought that from, like, Whole Whole Foods, but I'm in I'm into this. I'm gonna have to get some. Do you put anything in it, or is it just,

you're about do you put any, like, lemon or anything like that? Like a hoot guy, but usually people Yeah. Yeah. Like to put lemon or pineapple or whatever. But I drink literally every day all the time. Then if I put anything on it highly caffeinated for our audience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Yeah. For for those of you don't know, it it'll get you going. It'll definitely get you going.

It has no effect on me because I drink all the time.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's me with cold brew right now. Amazon autocorrects

Bamba straw to Boba straw, which is for bubble tea. Oh, yeah. Have to tell it. No. I don't want a bubble tea straw. I wanna I don't want a bubble tea straw. A spoon

with with tiny little holes and then a straw on it. Yeah. And so it doesn't suck up the the herb in the in your mouth. Don't don't try with a regular straw. Otherwise, you're going to eat the herb. It's

bad. Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna be pulling it out of your teeth. I actually have a gourd and one of these straws already. I'm into this. This is cool. Into this too. Yeah.

I'm gonna head to Whole Foods and pick up some Yerba.

Sick. That is a sick pick. Yeah. Yeah. I learned a new word. That's a that's probably a sick where's Scott and I are here just stunned at that sick pick. That was a sick, sick pick. Yeah. We'll do shameless plugs now. Westboss.comforward/courses.

You can check out all the courses that I have. Use syntax for $10 off. Learn a new thing or 2.

Yeah. I'm gonna shamelessly plug Vercel up tutorials.com.

It's my Wes where you can learn all sorts of cool stuff. We have courses on Svelte, Sapper. There's actually a we got a lot of courses on Meteor, and we're gonna have a new course, a free course that's on YouTube right now for, Meteor and Svelte. So if you're looking to get full stack apps up in, like, the the least amount of code in the entire world, I built a a package for, Meteor accounts with Svelte. And it's two lines of code, and you get the whole login system for free. It's so easy and simple. It's amazing. So, check it out level up tutorials Scott.

So my shameless plug is my Twitter. Just follow me on Twitter, Philippe Nevola, and I'm about to release our website that's called how to create an app .dev where I'm going to teach how everything that I learned about app development in the last years. Of course, I'm going to be using meter, not because I'm an evangelist, but because I love it, and I really use it every day.

And and that's it. Follow me on Twitter.

If you are interested in Meteor, join the Slack community. I'll have a link in the show notes for us. And there's also a forum too, forums.meteeredot com. You'll see, yours truly hanging out there all the time JS well as the Slack channel. I'm I'm in there all the time. And we also have a media room in the LevelUp Tutorials Discord channel too if you wanna talk meteor with LevelUp Tutorials as well. So, thank you so much for Felipe for coming on. This is awesome. I'm so excited to, get this episode out and for people to really hear about Meteor as it actually is. So that's I'm so excited.

Again, and we usually end the show with a piece. We just say peace. Peace.

Peace.

Peace.

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