Part 2 of Wes and Scott React to the State of JS

Welcome to syntax of the podcast with the tastiest web development treats out there. This is part 2 rid. Our reaction to the state of JS survey, we're gonna be going into mobile desktop testing tools, monorepo tools.

What languages other than JavaScript are you folks using? What podcasts are the top podcasts in the industry? And as well as pain points, what are the biggest groans of our industry? So stay tuned For that, we are sponsored today by 3 wicked companies. First 1 is Sentry Air Exception Performance Tracking, sanity, structured content, CMS and FreshBooks, cloud accounting. We'll talk about all them partway through the episode.

How are you doing today, Mr. Scott Talinski? I always realize I never introduce myself, but you always introduce yourself when you do it. So my name is Wes. I'm a developer from Hamilton. Here you go. With me as always is mister Scott Talinski. How are you doing today, Scott? That was wonderful, Wes. I I I I don't know why you don't always do that. I I don't know why. I always just go right for you. Yeah. Yeah. It's sometimes, it's people's first episode.

It's true. Yeah. And if you if you don't know, this is the Tasty Web Development Treats podcast.

Yeah. No. I'm doing good, man. I I just put up a bunch of stuff in my office. These sound panels, I ordered, a massive amount of these giant sound panels.

And because this room's like a a mega echo box, it's it's like you come in here, and it's just echo echo echo. So, like, I spent so much time hanging up sound panels finally last night. And so I got my I got my filing cabinet furniture. I got my sound panels. I am so very close to being able to start to, like, put the finishing touches on my office and hiding cables and permanently setting up Pictures and lighting and stuff like that. I'm so extremely close, but I kinda don't wanna finish everything off until I get those cloud panels up there. And then I can really just Put the polish on here and start tickets on, you know, those Instagram desk inspo photos.

Beautiful. Beautiful.

That's awesome. Well, once you're all done, we should we'll have a show on, on your setup because I'm very curious about your rid. Sound panels and and all that. Yeah. Yeah. My setup is is pretty rocking right now. It's sick. Like, desk in the middle is the best. Yeah. I rid. Really wish I could could do that. I don't have, like, maybe I could, but, I have so many cords as well. It was so I wanna get some sort of, like, panel behind it to hide everything. I have one of those, like, cages underneath

where I can just, like Oh, yeah. Just shove all The cables into the cage after everything's all set up. But unfortunately, I wanna, like, re I wanna re I wanna, like, unplug them all and then plug them back in and get all set up a little bit, rid You know, more organized here.

Yeah. I have my whole set up on this, like, rolling rack, and it's supposed to roll. But, like, the rid. Cables are only so long, so it doesn't roll anymore because the cables are are, like, to stop it from rolling. Right? I have my whole thing is is like

A, a power strip look mounted to the underside of my desk. And so I have so much stuff that all plugs into that, And I only have 1 cable coming out of my desk, which is the 1 power cable. And then since it's like Oh, that's the dream. Of, like, a dynamic lowering with a standing desk. Rid. So I can have, yeah, speakers and everything move and not worry about cables or it's it's pretty amazing.

The cart really quickly. Yeah. So I had a, Instacart.

I've I we tried it out a couple weeks ago. Just Instacart is the one you used specifically? Rid. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think we have we have, like, Uber, the convenience store, but it's, like, so expensive. It's like I'm not paying rid. $14 for a Gatorade.

So we have Instacart here, and I I tried it out, and, it's okay. Like, sometimes we're just like, oh my gosh. We don't have diapers, and it's like Sunday at 4 o'clock. And, like, I'm we're not gonna get out before stores close or, rid. We need stuff for lunch tomorrow, so we'll do a quick little Instagram. Yesterday, we ordered about 40, 50 things, and half of them were rid. Out of stock, like, no shade on Instacart, but, have them wear a stock and they need a replacements. And they they the person was just messaging me for, like, an hour while they shopped. Oh my god. And, like, there was, like, 18 more after I posted that. And I was just like, this is a full time job sitting here, and they're just like, rid. No. Half the stuff, I'm like, no. You can't replace that. That's not a good deal. Like, I have very good grocery scents as to, like, if something is a good deal or not or, like, what's fresh, what's on sale, and, like, I'm very good. And then just like somebody sending a photo of all of the lettuce, like, I don't know, rid. You know? And, so you're like, we have to talk about Instacart. So I'm curious why well, we've been doing that, like, the shopper thing since, basically, the pandemic started because,

rid. Whole Foods delivers to our house. Kroger does, the pickup where you can just drive and they put it in your car.

Or same with even Whole Foods. If you don't want to pay for the delivery, which we don't we I mean, Whole Foods is already expensive, but we have it where they load it into our car, which is great, but I I still prefer I love grocery shopping, so I don't mind going in. I hate grocery shopping. I would say it's on Really? The bottom of the list for things that I like to do in life. Oh, I love it. Take my kids, and we just look at everything. And we got a dragon fruit the other day, and that was a big thing for us. I'm a really I I like if I go grocery shopping, I would almost prefer to do it by myself, put in headphones, and just, like, run through the place like it's supermarket shoppers free. But, like, So so I it's it's so funny that you mentioned that, like, they gave you 1 banana. That's, like, such a huge break about that stuff is that they will, like, go out of their way to make the least, Like, intuitive decision. They'll be like, oh, you wrote down you want banana? I'll give you 1 banana.

1 you want Someone told me they got 1 brussels sprouts. Yeah. Right.

Rid. Like, did you need to spell it out entirely for them? Please pick the avocado that's not totally rotten, please. Please pick the Don't you don't need to pick the one that's rotten. But it does feel like they're just, like, not even looking and just, like, throwing whatever in the basket. And, yeah, I get it.

I'm sounding, like, you know, very spoiled here.

Yeah. That's a first world problem for sure. It's a really first world problem. Oh, Come on, man. Like, here we are.

You can you can make better choices than that. It whatever. Yeah. Yeah. At at one point, I just told her. I'm like, Claudia, rid. I trust you. Yeah. I ordered, like, 5 different kinds of kombucha, and she's like, all of them are out of stock. I was like, I trust you. Yeah. Just pick pick whatever looks good. Yep. Go for it. Sometimes they, like, substitute with, like, really odd things, though. They'll be like, we saw that you wanted yogurt, so we gave you sour cream instead. I'm like, Oh, no. That's not what I wanted.

Alright. So you just do, like, here's $200.

Guess what you think I would like for this. Rid. Make make me a couple of meals. Yeah. Just yeah. Plan out my my home meal meal prep. Yeah. Anyway, so I don't I don't do that anymore. Rid It's nice for, like, feeding diapers or some some stuff for kids' lunges really quickly, but much prefer going in. And, also, I feel like it's so much more expensive. I'm like, I know the price of that in stores.

And so you're attacking on that. The same with, like, Uber Eats. You're like it's like rid. Your order is $50. And then by the time you add a checkout, it's magically 60. And there's delivery fee and a 70. And then there's a 10 minute before you know it, you're like, oh, my gosh. What am I doing? I just bought 2 grilled cheeses for $70.

The only place we go in to shop is Costco, and I'll go in to shop at Costco.

I'll do that. It's fun. It's nice and big. You don't feel too claustrophobic in there, but yeah. Okay. Well, let's look at it in the state of JS Yes. In terms of the state of grocery shopping here. Let's Talk about, mobile and desktop first, because I think that one's kind of interesting. It's under the section of libraries, mobile, and desktop. And these are, like, the platforms for writing apps using web tech, use it for mobile. And so it's it's funny. There's a lot. It's it's so funny that in 2016, they had 3 options, React Native, Native apps, Cordova. But now fast forward to 2021, we have Hori, capacitor, electron, react native, native apps, expo, quasar, ionic, n w.js, cordova.

And these are all really interesting To me, I I think that this world is gonna continue to evolve and grow. So that seems like the obvious trend here is that there's a ton more options. Rid. But have have you tried like, which of these have you tried? Have you tried any of these, Wes? I I've done a course on on React Native, and we used Expo within that. And I've done a course on,

rid. But the others I have not tried. Yeah. I've done the exact same as you. I've done React Native straight up without expo, and I have done Electron.

Rid. And I also many, many moons ago, I did, NWJS, which is Node WebKit. That was sort of the big one for Electron hit, and it's still still pretty popular. I don't know the differences between the 2. Satisfaction is low.

Yeah. Yeah. And, Cordova. I did a bunch of Cordova back in the day as well.

So, yeah, I guess I Have done a lot of these, but it's just not something I've done maybe in the last 3 years.

I haven't done that apart from we talked about I wrote a little sales widget.

You know, the Ios has widgets now? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Although, they're they're essentially just glorified app icons, not like Android widgets, you know? I I wish they were, like, Android widgets. What does Android widgets do? They're interactive. Like, you can put a play button that actually plays whatever, where the Ios version's like, rid. Here's an here's, like, a link to the app with some more information. It's kind of half assed, but yeah. Yeah. I I wrote one that, I pulled in my sales and stats and everything like that, and then it just updates every I don't know. I'm not sure how often it updates, but it's It's often every time I unlock my phone, I can just take a quick little glance at sales and everything. I like that. Have you heard of Tory before? Because I've been having an eye on Tory for, like, over a year. 83%

coming out of nowhere? What's what is this 1? 83% satisfaction, but only, like, 17%

in awareness. So that means that nobody's using it, but the people who are using it like it. Tori is a rust based Alternative to electron is what it is, really.

And I've had an eye on this for a long time because somebody sent it to me via Twitter DMs, like, over a year ago. And they were like, this is not ready to use yet, but I I know you're at least interested in the Rust landscape. You should check this out. And what's one of my favorite things about it, the website, tauridot rid. Studio, t a u r i.studio, is that if you scroll down, they have this road map where it shows you q 4 2019 rid. Completed, whatever. And then it shows you exactly what they're working on while they're working on it and exactly what's next and what's coming down in the pipeline. Like, The the next few things are Iframe with native API scoped file system, stable releases q 1 2022, so hopefully soon. Right? It's been in progress for a little while now, but it seems really cool. So the idea is that it's supposed to be, like, a faster version of Electron is really what it is. Interesting. Yeah. This looks good. Definitely

probably a bit too early to dig into it because I just clicked I clicked on their their main website. It says cross platform Mobile and WASM coming soon. Yep. And I clicked on it, and it says how to use g h action for building.

That's it. That's the whole docs page, obviously. And, like, that's that happens when things are very early on. Right? Like, they they spend time actually building the thing rather than having comprehensive docs. But, Oh, that looks good. I'd I'd made a a Tory site.

They're like using create react app sometime Sometime maybe even over, like, a year and a half ago maybe. And it was really easy to get up and running, but then again, it was just like a hello world thing. And it was fine. I mean, it's fine. It's it does what it says it does. Yeah. What what what part is Rust then? I feel like you build your UI in HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.

Right? And what what is the Rust part? So in Electron

or in Tori, you have a lot of, like, server side stuff that needs to happen, working with APIs. And you need to hear quotes there, like, desktop side stuff. Right? Yeah. I did do air quotes, and this is an audio only podcast. So, air quotes.

But yeah. So so it is it is like there's a lot of stuff whether you're working with APIs or you're working with the file rid system or just anything that you would typically do maybe like server side in a real app, or, anything that interacts With the the actual APIs of Mac, Linux, Windows, those types of things, that's what what Tori is going to be doing in Rust. Cool. Cool.

Rid. Well, that's that's exciting to see a bunch of movement in that space as well. Let's see. Native apps, people writing native it. Went from 85% in 2016 to 76%. So still a high choice by most people is just to go full native.

And that is with people who write JavaScript. But you also see a lot more options, electronic native, whatever.

Rid. Reach those are even higher, which makes sense. It's in a a JavaScript survey. Those people are probably using JavaScript to build their things. Yeah. So I thought That was really interesting. I was happy to see Tory on this because, again, it's something I had in my brain.

But, yeah, other than that, there there's There's some progressive web apps, NativeScript, Svelte Native. Svelte Native did I think it's just NativeScript, a wrapper around NativeScript.

No. The g y, I have not seen or heard of no g y before. But either way, these are the tools for mobile and desktop development. Do Do you want to get into testing next, or do you want to go to mono reviews?

Let's get into testing here. Taking a look at the rankings of usage, number 1 coming in with just 73%.

Then that's in mocha. 50%.

Rid. Oh, that no. This is in usage of, like, what are I think it's it's kind of interesting to see, like, what are people using And what are people unhappy with? Because you tend to see the things that have been around for a long time have the highest usage.

Roblox or they're frustrated with I know ingest world is such a pain for using ESM and whatnot.

Rid. So you see you kind of see an inverse relationship between the amount of time it's been around and the satisfaction. But, usage, Top usage. Let's go through the the top ones real quick. Jest, Mocha, Storybook, Cypress, Jasmine, Puppeteer, React. Or no. Just just testing library. Sorry. Not rack testing library. It's part of a WebDriver Playwright Ava and Vitez. Oh, Vitez. Never heard of that one. So Vitez is brand brand new new. It's from the folks over at.

I have not tried it yet, but I've heard good things. And, honestly, I think I will try it because rid. It it actually kinda blows my mind that satisfaction for just is at 93%.

I've never really loved just, but the thing that, like, really Makes me upset with Jest is using it, using it in any sort of ESM context or a TypeScript.

Using rid. And, like, more modern workflows than just, like, testing Yeah. Node files or whatever has seriously never been a good experience for me. Rid. Anytime you get outside of the babble world using babble and having whatever like, I I had to have, A custom babble config just for my jest files.

And, like, I don't wanna transform my test files and have to worry about that. I just wanna write My tests like, tests are a big enough pain in the butt already to have to worry about whether my tests are working or not. So, like, my my tests are broken, but not because my tests are failing, but because The code that powers the tests are broken. Like, I don't wanna deal with any of that. So I'm that's why I'm surprised that just is so high because I've never had a great experience with it. But, Yeah. Some of these are really interesting. The v test, I've heard nothing but awesome things for it.

But, again, I haven't used it yet. I think this is maybe something we should Maybe spend some time on a Vite. Test is a blazing fast unit test framework powered by Vite. And since just about everything I'm doing nowadays is on Vite, I would have to imagine this would be a better experience to use than, than just within Vite. Because once you get into this whole ESM world Yeah. It's rid. TypeScript

out of the box, ESM first, which is the whole idea behind Veed as well. All I'm saying. Yeah. Exactly what I'm saying. It says it says just Snapshot. So does that mean that it has replicated the features of snapshot testing ingest, or, like, does it mean it integrates? That's actually a great question. I was gonna say I would imagine that it it's replicated the features, but I don't know. Probably. And, like, you can, like, maybe because just Snapshot has all these different like serializers, which is like how does it get made into a string?

I don't like and they probably

adapt to the thing. Yeah.

Yeah, rid. Yeah. We did a whole I don't mind it for some things. Like, I was just updating my advanced react course for the testing, and we used snapshot for a bunch of it and then react test library, which is just vanilla vanilla JS for thing. That was

Probably for 80% of it. Yeah. I wanna try Playwright a little bit more. So Playwright, what it is, it's it's it's end to end testing the same way that, like, Cypress is. Right? You're loading it up in the browser, and you're you're hitting the DOM, and you're going through the application like that. People seem to say really nice things about Playwright. I like that. I I don't see anything about a GUI or anything here. One of the things I really like about Cypress is that it has this, like, really awesome GUI, really awesome user interface.

You can see visually what's happening. You can actually inspect in the DOM and look around. I don't know if I need a replacement for Cypress because I I do really like it, but I think this is one of the newer tools that people are starting to use a lot there.

Interesting that they put Storybook as a testing tool.

How are you feeling about that?

Yeah. That's a good question. I always thought more of like a design dev tool.

But I guess because if you want to render out your components and test them, I haven't used it a whole lot. So maybe I'm missing something. Maybe that's a whole show we'll on the books is going into some of the more modern testing frameworks because it's probably been at least 2 years since we've done a whole testing show explaining everything. Yeah. Who likes testing?

It's what's what's interesting here was if you wanna be, like, on board of, like, what might be the next big thing, All you have to do is look at interest versus usage. And so usage, v test, 3%, interest, v test, 83%.

So, like, it's at it literally goes from 0 to hero here in terms of usage versus interest. So people are Interested in it? Nobody's using it just yet. It's too new. So I think that's kind of fun. Maybe we need to,

like, run some numbers on the stats of this thing and figure out what shows we should do. And then dude.

That's the game. Oh, if you're a YouTuber, man, you could you could, like, like, do that. The cross action of interest versus usage.

You could get some banger videos out of that. Yeah, I agree. And I don't want to. There you go. I don't want to Give away some of my, strategy too much here. But if you look at my What is Wednesday series, the upcoming What What is Wednesday videos are kind of Definitely, inspired by some of the things in the survey. So I I actually it's funny that you say that. I'm kind of, like, sitting here like, Wes, you're giving away some of my good info my good ideas here. Your rid. Secret sauce.

Yeah. But then another time. Whatever. There's there's lots of room in the pool. So all of these tools will help you write really good tests, And really good tests can help save your bacon.

But maybe if you, have some stuff broken that you didn't test really well, you can Find where the holes in your application are. I'm kind of doing what is called a segue into one of our sponsors today, which is century at century dot I ready. Oh, is the perfect place to see all of your errors and exceptions happen. And a big old table of all of the issues, how many users they're affecting, when the last time that error happened. You can see a lot of really great information, like the old browser stack, what users it's attached to. There's so many great features. And, Again, I always talk about one of the cool things for me is that Sentry is always uploading and adding on to their their UI. They're always Adding new features that people care about and wanna learn.

I think the performance tracking stuff is some of the coolest stuff they've added lately because I can see very definitively how Moving to SvelteKit ended up affecting the speed and performance of our site. I can see exactly when and where we made changes so that the performance has gotten better for all of our users. But more than that, I can stay on top of it to know exactly what's going on on my site at all times. I can get emails and notifications if there's a regression happening, Which, let's face it, regressions happen, or sometimes you think you fixed a bug, you push an update, and you click, yeah, that bug's fixed. And then you get an email saying, no. It wasn't.

That bug came back.

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Okay. Rid. So do we wanna talk about mono repo tools now?

Yeah. Yeah. Let's dive into that. We did a whole show. If you're not sure what a mono repo is. You can go back to that show. That was a pretty well received show, so check it out.

Let's dig into the rankings For the monorepos of what are people using versus what are people satisfied with.

So what are people using? Rid. 25 the top one, 25% is Learna. So that that says that most people are not using monorepos just because of, Either because of the type of app they're working on or because of, they haven't just, like, dug into it. Then rid. Under that is yarn at 25% as well. NPM workspaces is 18%. It's pretty new.

Then PNPM, 13%, which Scott made me convert too, and I've been, I owe him for I owe you, like, some flowers or something for that because that was a big good move. Oh, yeah. Like, it's it's been like Like, I I always had on the Monorepo show. Like, I it's having all kinds of issues with NPM workspaces, and I just wanted to stay vanilla NPM.

And then, rid. It it wasn't working, and PM PM just worked. It makes sense. I don't know why, but it works. Yeah.

Yeah. Underneath that is NX, 13% and then Turborepo only 3%.

It's not a perfect thing because I use PNPM and Turborepo together.

We are going to have shows both about NX and Turbo Repo coming up. So those are usage. What about satisfaction, Scott? Yeah. What's funny, satisfaction,

rid. A PNPM is the highest for satisfaction, which is not surprising to me because, again, it's it it works. Just works. It works. It in, like, in my experience, the config for getting workspaces set up with PNPM was way like, I I wrote way less config with the PNPM, and the config that I did write was not difficult. So, like Yeah. I think mine's, like, 3 lines. Yeah. I was like, rid. This is it just it it it all is very easy. You don't have to craft a ton of stuff. You don't have to worry about 800 config files and All that stuff. I haven't used Turborepo myself yet, but I would love to to give it a good look. But Turborepo is coming in at 88% in terms of satisfaction. So people are loving Turborepo, which makes sense because it's ridged. NX 85% satisfaction also makes sense. I I almost never hear people say anything bad about NX. I would love to to dive more into it myself. Again, it's a little bit heavier than some of these things. NPM Workspaces, then Yarn Workspaces.

Rid. I'm surprised to see Yarn Workspaces lower than npm Workspaces.

Yeah. I'm surprised about that as well. So, like, more people using Yarn by by far, But people are a little less satisfied with it. Maybe because of the, I don't know, frustration between moving from Yarn 1 to Yarn 2. I bet that was

some confusion there. Yeah. And there's Yelp, which I've never used myself.

Yelp. Yelp. I don't know too much about it, though. Lerna at 60%. So that's like a bit pretty big drop from the out Yalk.

It's like 10, 16% drop from Yalk to Lerna, Which in my experience, that tracks Lerno to me was not a great experience. It felt like kind of a pain. I think Lerno was just, like, one of the first ones out there to do what it's doing, And then now some, like, more streamlined tools are coming out. And then bringing up the rear is Russia at 59%, and that doesn't surprise me at all because Russia's Documentation really feels like, if you wanna feel overwhelmed very quickly, just go to Russia's documentation and be like Like, why why is there so many things in this? This why is this there's too many things. There's too many things to have to know. There's it's, like, it's such a own its own ecosystem.

Like, if I was picking between any of these, I would go PNPM for the easy solution,

Turborepo for, like, the bleeding edge solution, then NX probably for, like, the The big the big the big boy. Looks like YALC is a better workflow than NPM or Yarn Link for package authors. So it's it just solves that 1 piece, which is young link, NPM, trying to link your local version,

when you're working on Which NPM workspaces does so well.

Rid. So well.

That's the that's the issue that I was running into as well. Yeah.

Rid. Didn't didn't work. Hopefully, it gets better because we'll see. But for now, PMPM is saving my bacon. Yeah. You know what? NPM link itself Was probably,

like, the the thing that I had you have, like, the least visibility in. You're like, is this working? Like, I have no idea. Is this loading up the local version? Is it loading up the version from it? I have no clue what's going on with NPM link. I'm just kind of praying that it does work. It's like, I almost feel, like, so very confused, like, if if NPM link is actually working. One of the things I love about PNPM workspaces is that in your package dot JSON, rid. Explicitly just says workspace in front of the version number so you could see very clearly which version that's loading up, where it's coming from. So I've always I I really like that.

But it does seem like how happy are you with the state of mono repo tools? So we have a 40 2% is neutral. I would imagine those people, like, just don't use mono repos.

18% are happy. 6.1% very happy. 8 point are 5.3% unhappy and 1.8% are very unhappy. I would imagine the unhappy and very unhappy people have not tried some of the newer tools That make this a little bit more streamlined, because I think they I think this has gotten easier over time here. Let's move into

some other tools Section is just scroll through these and grab a couple interesting ones. Sure. But maybe we should talk about SponsoredLinX. Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah. Let's talk about Sanity, Wes. Yes. Sanity. Content is data. Sanity to I o is a unified content platform that powers better digital experiences.

What does that mean? Rid. Well, let me tell you. So you want to build a website or an app or I've heard some of the the crazy things that people are using Sanity for us. Like, rid. You need to put the data for your business somewhere, and then that data needs to end up in an application, in an email, on your website, on a sandwich board for a restaurant needs to end up in places. Right? And where do you put that data? How do you manage that data? And then at the end of the day, how do you get that data to where it needs to go. That's what Sanity is for. You set up all your content types. You can have relationships. You can have custom inputs.

One of the crazy things is that we had Sanity sponsor the Wordle episode, and they we always tell you you can make your own. Like Sanity is Is like a hosted API, but you can make your own custom inputs, if you need to. And they made a Wordle API. They made the entire Wordle game Out of a custom input, which is really, really funny. That just goes to show how flexible it actually is in terms of making your own custom inputs Should you need, one that wasn't available there. So check it out. Sanity.i0forward/ syntax. I'll get you double the free usage tier. Thank you, Sanity, for sponsoring.

So JavaScript run times, I thought this one was interesting.

72% of people using Node and 68 rid. Percent or almost 69% of people using the browser. So more people are using JavaScript on the server Then in the browser What? Which is interesting.

So, yeah, what? That doesn't make I guess I guess, like, they're just Entirely server devs, you know. Like, maybe the people that are maybe they're yeah. Are doing that. Yeah. Only 18% are writing service workers.

Imagine saying that more responders are using JavaScript on the server in, like, 2011.

You know, web developers would be like, wait. What? What are you talking about? What? But That's where we do PHP.

Where else does JavaScript run? Serverless workers. I'm assuming that means, like, Workers. Like serverless functions Or MJ just that probably, CloudFlare workers. Maybe they mean CloudFlare workers. Not sure what they mean by that. Dino, 5.6%.

Rid. Hermes. What's that? Yeah. What is what is Hermes? JavaScript engine engine optimized for React Native.

Oh, so that must be the oh, yeah. I've heard of this. This is this is from what do they call Facebook now? Meta. Bunch of like a meta from the folks at Meta.

That's kind of interesting. And then Chakracore, which is the JavaScript engine with a c API.

Isn't this yeah. This was the engine that was used in Microsoft Edge.

This is not used anymore, but I guess people are still have it embedded in places, right? Like that's the thing about Engines, you can take the engine and put it in whatever you want just like they took a v eight engine out of chrome and put it in no. Js. Mhmm. Did you see the speaking of meta,

rid That, FAANG you know, FAANG? What does FAANG stand for? Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, and Google? Yeah. I saw somebody somebody say that FAANG is now ring.

I was, like, cracking up about that.

Yeah, Meng. Yeah, Meng. I I it's funny. I have, I have, whenever I do admin roles, I do supermang and admang instead of admin and

super.

Rid. I don't know why I just always done it. It's always been, like, a nice little fun thing for me to code in there. So what I saw was is now main main things. I was like, yeah. This is great. I'm here for that. JavaScript

flavors, TypeScript blowing everything out out of the water. 70% using TypeScript. And then the next one is 2.4% Elm flow even lower. Coffee script even lower. Yeah. Reason pure script rid. Imda rescript.

So you hear a lot about these things, but, man,

what are actually people using? Yep. TypeScript. It is funny because I mean, for remember when like, 2 years ago, we were, like, alright. TypeScript, reason, and flow. It's gonna be Yeah. Colossal head to head match up here. And I think we both probably agreed that TypeScript was going to win just because of It's the closest to JavaScript. It's the easiest. It's not Facebook owned.

And and, like, rid. Hey.

Now we're kind of seeing that, yeah, TypeScript is the definitive winner. I I personally wouldn't pick up reason or flow in 2022 just because you I can't imagine that usage is going to be increasing rapidly in any of those tools regardless of if they're better in any sort of way. Right? Anytime you have this conversation, it's like but reason can do this and flow can do this. And it's like, yeah. Okay. But if if only, You know, 1% of the people who answered the survey are using it or less.

I can't imagine what like, you're gonna have a harder time hiring people for it. You're gonna have a harder time finding resources is about it. Type serve for third party libraries are gonna be less available. So it really does feel like in terms of typed language JavaScript.

TypeScript Is the definitive king, and it is not going to probably change unless something better comes Or JavaScript gets types. Right? What about non JavaScript languages? Don't look at do you look at this one? I was gonna ask you to guess. No. I haven't. I haven't looked at this. No. Alright. What's The number one language other than JavaScript. Oh, I I know this because you said it in our prerecorded, but I didn't read this. It's just Python. Right? Rid. Yeah. You set it up. Guess the other guess the other top fives. Okay.

For the web, is it are they Specifically for servers. I don't okay.

Yeah.

So there's one of them in there that's like, oh, okay. Yeah. You're not building websites in that, but I can see you use it. Is this are we talking usage here? Yeah.

Web based.

None. 25% of people using Python. Python. Very surprised that that was number 1. I would have thought that Would Ruby d be number 2 still in 2022? Oh my gosh. Ruby is only 6.2%.

People who answered the survey. Yeah. I feel like that's not significant. Different world. The industry. Yeah.

Rid. The industry is definitely lots of rails still.

Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I I feel like that's the same the same, circles that like, what was the, Amber didn't get a lot of love on this thing, but like Amber still pretty heavily used. I just don't think that it's in the circles that answered this. Yeah, right. The thing. So number 2 is Let me get 19%.

Oh, sorry. Did you say it? Yeah. I didn't hear it. Did you hear it? No. I didn't hear it. Alright. Go for it. Go.

Go, Lang?

No. No. No. Go is number 6. Okay. 10%.

Is Rust higher than Go? Is Rust like 5? Rust is 9.7%

just under Go. Okay.

Rid. And we we probably have Java in there. Yeah. Number 3 at 15%.

What is that number 2? You're missing the big one. Well, what does everybody use? Non JavaScript based? Oh, PHP.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 20 19% using PGP. So 6% more people use Python. I would have guessed very much the opposite.

Mhmm. So

Interesting. Interesting. You're getting a lot of industry my circles, though. Yeah. The circles here, you know, I mean, Python is is used pretty heavily in rid In Fangland, so Mangland, I should say.

Mang by the Mangs. Yep. By the Mangs. Cool. And then, like, I don't know some of the other little ones, Kotlin, Dart, Swift, Elm, Haskell, Objective C. Oh, yeah. The the 4th one was bash, which is like, I guess, like, most devs in my yeah. I've written a bash script and you Yeah. You check that off. Yeah. I'll check it out. I'm already bat bash script. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Did this kind of funny, these other tools, other libraries? I know you said that wasn't that interesting to you, but Axios is used a lot.

Axios has 41% the respondents. Yeah. Man, I've never touched Axios. I know you use it, but, like, I've never I've never gotten the need for it. I've never felt like I need all kinds of good stuff. Like, I'll give you an example.

I actually started a show about this is like,

Why? Like, everyone's always like, oh, Axios, so you could just use Fitch. That's kind of yeah. I mean, I know you're you're making fun of those people, but that's exactly what I would say. That's you.

Rid. But, so, like, maybe we'll do a, an entire show on, like Axios does more than you think, You goof.

Like, axios, you can do, like, a cookie basket where you hold on to cookies, which is delicious And super handy, you can do redirects when you hit a, like, for example, on my admin dashboard.

Rid. If you are not logged in because for whatever reason, we'll intercept that request and redirect you to the login page. So any time you just write a little adapter, And then any requests that do that will will be intercepted. Right? There's a couple others. Obviously, the big one is you don't have to do double await. Rid. You can set default headers in Axios. So, like Oh, yeah. I don't I I probably use Axios, I don't know, 17% of the time. In most cases, rid. Fetch is more than enough for me, and I can I can make a little function to do what the the other percent of the stuff that I wanna do? But rid. For more advanced use cases, you're doing a lot. Does it does quite a bit. But then, again, if you are doing a lot, maybe you're you're reaching for,

Something a little bit more like, React Query here. Yeah. React Query, something like that. So anything. You know? Exactly. They're kinda interesting here that lodash is really high.

I recently just vanquished lodash from my life. I'm only using just really, just because they're so small and a little bit easier. And then, like, anything else, I'm just either writing myself or importing. Yeah. Lodash is, rid. But it's not surprising that it's highly used. I mean, Lodash is everywhere. Lodash and Moment are I'm surprised that margins is high. Yeah. Moment like Moment has said, don't use Moment for years, and everyone's still using it. Yeah.

You put you put it in your app, and that's what you use. It works. Rid. Yeah. You know, it's not a big deal, but, like, data fence is probably better. And Lodash, in almost all cases, rid. You can just write a little function with MapReduce. And if you need something, you can just you can npm install. Like, there's nothing wrong with loadash. You can npm install just a loadash. But like like God says you can just grab the just dash whatever, and a lot of cases as well. Yeah. But that's that's not how people use. They install it and, like, rid. I'm not gonna freaking swap out a You're right. Yeah. A Lodash function that is, like, critical to my business. I don't I don't wanna be get that rid. Call on a Saturday afternoon that something broke because the implementation was slightly different. You know? Totally right. And and even with, like, Moment, it's the same thing. Right? Moment,

People used, and they're probably just not ripping it out, despite the fact that date, FNS is probably the way to go in the future.

And then hopefully, the temporal API when it's done. Totally. It's just, like, not worth a rewrite. You know? Like Yeah. In a lot of cases, people use Date FNS has the same API as moment, but there's some stuff in moment that if you use it in like an object oriented way, then Doesn't work exactly the same. And, like, people are, like, you know what? Like, we could replace this

or I could actually do something that, like, makes rid The business money, you know, and this is working just fine for me. Have you heard of Luxon? No. I don't know. Another Date time library, I had never heard of it, and I clicked on it. Oh. And it says a powerful, modern, friendly JavaScript wrapper for JavaScript date and times. You know what? I I think we're on the precipice here of some, like, really big changes in how we do dates in JavaScript Because once the temporal Definitely a precipice. Yeah. So definitely a precipice. Once once the temporal API hits, I think we're gonna see new tools that use this are gonna be lighter weight because the browser APIs have gotten better.

So it'll be interesting to see what this chart looks like next year if that API is finalized people start using it.

I'm interested. Standard lib.

That that's actually the answer there is standard lib is, like, what do you use is,

Oh, no. Standard Liba library? I think it this might be a library.

Stlib.i0.

Okay. Never mind. I thought that I was people just saying I just use built ins, but that's not the case. Yeah. I never heard of this either. Utilities. Yeah. Let's go through utilities real quick.

70% using ESLint, 64% using Prettier, 48% using Babble, and then

Yeah, I bet I bet next year we'll see a 10% drop in people using Babble. Yeah, I agree with that because I stopped using Babble a while ago and it sucked. It was really hard. It was,

rid. Almost a 20% drop. About 15% drop in just 1 year for Babel this year. So we'll probably see that again next year. Cool. Let's move to

resources. Let's talk about resources.

Yeah. We're running out the top of podcast is syntax.fm.

So thank you all for voting for us. Rid. That's really awesome that you said you listen to syntax. And if you're not listening to syntax, you wouldn't be listening when you say this. And yeah.

Rid. My my biggest thing is that we could grow our our podcast 10 acts if we got to capture the rest of the 90% of other people. And this just goes to show that most people don't listen to podcasts. Like we have a like, obviously, we have A very large following to this podcast, but a lot of people just don't. And that's just that just goes to show, like, learning styles. You know, some people Absolutely love learning by listening to us babble on and say stupid jokes, and then some people don't. They'd rather read docs or something like that. Before rid. Though. I didn't really listen to any tech podcast. I mean,

syntax is one of the only tech podcast I still listen to. That's why we started. Yeah. Because so many of them are are so dry. Rid. So Yeah. You needed to be able to rant about,

Instacart for 10 minutes before you actually get into the

the tech. Right? True. Rid. Yeah. I think that was I mean, that goes to driving. One of our our big things is that we did want it to be fun, and I think that helps. But yeah. So it looks like people are learning mostly rid. Through self directed learning. That's at, like, pretty high percentage, 63%.

Online courses is 41%, video and screencast, 35%, books rid. It's 28%.

What's up with all these books? I don't I mean, I I cannot imagine learning programming from a book. This this agent is probably just because I'm a bad reader, but, like, Yeah. I I mean either. But the amount of time that I spend reading programming books is very, very small.

On the job training, online courses paid, School or higher education is 13%, mentoring is 10%, podcasts, 8%.

Yeah. There that is exactly your, point that you just made.

Yeah. Well, it's good. I'm looking at this, and I am covered in online courses, free rid. Paid courses and podcasts. Mhmm. And I I thought I thought I thought of coding boot camp. So I've, I got my bases covered here. Me too. And sites and courses,

West Boss is on there. LevelUpTutorials is on there.

We have people. West Wes, you rank pretty high on the people. And guess what? I made the main list for the 1st time. I was on the, like, the other people list the other times, and now I'm on the main list. So that's pretty sweet. Next year, I'm gonna spam my email list to get to the top of this thing just for my own ego's sake. Yep. Yep.

Rid. No. I I it this is again, like, I tweeted it out. That's why I'm high on there. Right? Yeah. So Right. That makes sense. That is the I mean, we we covered this in the last episode, but this survey is the results of the people who answered the survey. It's not the industry as a whole. You know what I mean? Like like Fireship.

That's a huge YouTube channel. Totally. And it's it's less than mine. No way. They probably have bigger audience than I do. Yeah. They got a lot. So Does Subscribers. Yeah. They probably didn't tweet it ready. Right. So makes sense. What else do we want to go here? Opinions. Any, these are kind of interesting. They have opinions like JavaScript is moving in the right direction.

Rid. 22% agree strongly and about 60% agree.

So people seem to be pretty happy rid. With JavaScript these days, what do you think about that? I'm not surprised. I I, you know, I

responded that I was happy with JavaScript Because I am. You know, the amount of stuff you can do this year is more than the amount of stuff you could do that last year or the year before. It's gotten easier. It's Yeah. More effortless. So, that's not surprising to me. I'm surprised that only let's see.

JavaScript is moving in the right direction.

57% agree. 22 strongly agree. 15% neutral.

So it it really feels like the large part, everybody is just thinking like, Yeah. We're we're going in there we're we're going in the right direction. Things are getting better. They're getting easier.

We still have this JavaScript pain points, which I think is pretty interesting, Where you have number 1, managing dependencies is the biggest JavaScript pain point, which is not surprising, to me because it's giant PIA.

We have code architecture at number 2. That's actually a little surprising because, you know, there's so much freedom in the architecture of your code nowadays. So maybe that's it. Is that, like, rid. There's too much for you. That's it. It's like, what do I tell me what to do. Give me structure. Like, that's why people love love rails and MVC frameworks. Right? But, But, yeah, that makes sense. I was just kinda like, oh, you choose. There here is 7,000 things. Pick a couple. You know? I think state management is high up for the same reason. So state management is number 3. I think state management is so high up as being a JavaScript pain point for 2 specific reasons. 1, there's no direction. You have to make all the choices yourself, but 2, react react. State management has always been a pain, and there's always a lot of options. People are doing it very different ways. There's a lot of, like, this is the right way, this is the wrong way kind of things where, like, if you go into Svelte land, me bringing up Svelte, if you go into Svelte land, You have all the options are baked into the platform. You don't have to make those choices. This is just how you do it. Right? And I think Other libraries doing that, and as people get off of React and they see that state management doesn't have to be this, like, rid. Wild Wild West, Jim West Desperado, then, you know, then you'll be able to Yeah. See just how easy it could be. What else is here? Debugging is a top pinpoint. I don't know if it's a top pinpoint or these were the only options. That's I kinda get it, though, because, like, in debugging, in modern web applications, you fire of the developer or the debugger and Versus code or whatever you got attached to the process. You gotta worry about source maps. You gotta worry about Connecting, the debugger to the baked in one in Chrome. It's like there there's a lot there, and I personally have had Many issues with the transformations not finding the source map correctly or the the difference between the TypeScript version of the site and the normal one. I think that I think it can be rid. Easy enough, but it also can be a giant pain point. The lowest one on this list is asynchronous

code, which is, rid. I think that's a win for the native implementation of promises and then a sync away. A sync code is can be hard to write, but rid. If that is the lowest on the the pain points of pain points that you have, that is good because, yeah, I'm I'm very happy with

The promised land, right, that we have right now. You know, it it's funny. I would imagine at some point in our our past, like 2012, 2013, async code would have been number 1 pain point in JavaScript because there were a lot of libraries trying to solve it. There was no native implementation Callback hell. Callback hell. Yeah. And we we had a a word for something with use the word hell in it, which to me indicates that Yeah. Do we have any other house? Dependency hell. Dependency hell. We all still have. Yeah.

Testing hell, maybe. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Tell us Tell us what your personal hell is. Tweet us at syntax f m. I would like to hear that. I'd love to hear that too.

Features missing from rid. JavaScript static typing number 1. Standard lib number 1. Standard lib is like there's not a lot built into JavaScript that is very quickly changing.

Rid Coming down the down the pipe. Right? I mean, we used to not have very good, promise based library. Now we do. You know? All that stuff is built in, but there's still rid. People coming from other languages or specifically PHP or Python, those things are are, like, well suited. They They have a lot of stuff. You don't want the NPM install everything. Totally.

Yeah.

What else do we have here? Features missing better date management? Okay. Oh. Come on now. Little temple. That's that's coming. It's coming. Nobody's using it yet. It can't be polyfilled. Well, it is polyfilled, but the polyfill is large. And, yeah, you probably don't wanna. You probably don't wanna you probably don't wanna use it in production. You probably don't. But, unfortunately, I am.

Rid I I'm only Whatever. I'm only using it in our admin tool stuff, so I have a code split out so the the users aren't hitting it. But, I I just wanted to try it, so I used it in our admin section. So I feel I feel like I shouldn't have done that. But, hey, admin section stuff. Who cares? The playground.

Immutable data structures. Yes. Record and 2 people are coming. Yes, please.

Observables.

Yeah.

Pattern matching. Yeah. Pattern matching could be better. I think there's, like, some Some proposals for a match, like, kind of like a switch, like a rest style match. Pipe operator is in there. I rid. I probably voted for the pipe operator. Pipe operator has, some drama around which implementation they're doing. I I wish they would Yeah. We talked about that. Rid ship it. Yeah. No. That wasn't the last one. That was the

episode 433 JavaScript in 2022, new incoming proposed features. We talked about the pipe operator there. Yeah.

And then decorators bringing up the rear. Now I used to use decorators at some point. I haven't touched them in a while ever since they got demoted.

And, you know, it just feels like, when I talk about hells, I think decorator is just stuck in, like, a purgatory. Right? It's just kind of, like, sitting there being, like, yep. Okay.

That's good.

Rid. Let's move on to the award section. Are you okay with that? Yeah. Things that stood out for this year. It's kind of fun. So they're all question marks, And there's 5 of them, and we get to hit the button. So we me and Scott are both gonna guess, and then we'll click it. So first one is most adopted feature awarded to the feature With the the largest year over year have used progression.

Optional training. Oh, most adopted a feature. I have 2 things I would guess from here, and I would I'm gonna I'm sticking with optional training. K. I I would say optional training, but I'll go with knowledge call. That was just the other one I was gonna Okay. Alright. Here we go. Click. No. That's cool. No. That's cool. Yep. Mhmm. Oh. Runner-up. Optional chaining. We knew there were 1 and 2, but, folks, we both knew it was 1 and 2. Let's just get that right here.

2nd runner-up. Alright. Next 1. You wanna grab the next 1? Most adopted

technology awarded to the technology largest year over year would use it again. I'm gonna say Veet. I'm gonna say feed as well. E s build.

E s build. Oh, wow. Close enough. Close enough. Next up, oh, TypeScript rid. Got the biggest bump second and testing library, 3rd biggest bump. That's interesting. 3rd one, highest satisfaction awarded of the technology with the highest percentage of satisfied users.

I'm gonna say v I'm gonna say v.

Beat. Beat. Beat. Yeah.

Number 2, Testing library. I can see that. It's a joy to use. And ES build, as well. Joy to use as well.

High interest. Order to technology developers who are most interested

oh, no. Sorry. You can you can get this one.

Highest interest Sorry. The most interested the delvos are most interested in learning. I'm gonna say beat again.

What are my options? I know. Right? It's too open ended here. I'm gonna say Svelte.

And

Veet. That's Veet.

Rid. And then v v test is number 2.

V and e s build. Yeah. That's crazy v test, and e s build is number 3. And the v Uses ES build. So, like, ES build kinda dominating this chart here. And number the last 1, most write ins. Order to the item with the most write in answers.

Rid.

Most right ends.

This is gonna be something obscure because it's not popular enough to hit Any of the things. I don't know. I'm going to say

v test.

I have no idea.

I'm going to say

lit. Oh, interesting.

Elm. Elm. Elm. Number 2, Dencil number 3, Plaatze. Plaatze. Plaatze.

Plaatze is a oh, it looks like a Training? Spanish online training platform. Interesting.

Interesting. Spanish?

Is Spanish? It's, I always do stuff like that, and people like that's Portuguese, you idiot. I was gonna say it's either Spanish or Portuguese, but, I would I'm guessing this is Spanish. Let's let's put I'm gonna

detect.

Rid Yeah. That is Spanish. I took it. I'm good. Enough Spanish in high school to recognize this as being Spanish. I can we're French over here, so I can at least have that for me. Rid. Cool. Well, that was in. Very, very interesting. Thanks to everyone who filled out the state of JS survey. I love seeing all these things. I'm excited for the state of CSS one coming up as well. We'll let you know when you can vote on that. Yeah. And we're gonna spam you with it so that you vote for us rid. Yeah. Wayne from Scott and I are gonna get to the top.

So now, it's time to talk about our last sponsor, which is going to be Fresh rid books. Wes, do you wanna talk about FreshBooks?

I do. FreshBooks is the cloud accounting solution for your small business, for your medium rid. If you're a freelancer, you name it, they got it.

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You get a 30 day free trial there. No credit card required. Thank you, FreshBooks, for sponsoring.

Cool. Alright. Now it's time part where we do sick picks, Wes. I have a sick pick for anyone that has kids. If you have little kids, not not like, I'm gonna say, like, our daughter is two and a half, and this is, like, perfect for her. So if you have little kids, we got her this thing. It's By LeapFrog, it's called an on the go story pal. And it's like a little bunny with a thing that you can carry around, and it has, like, It has a ton of stuff on here. It has, like, okay, 70 plus stories, poems, songs, and lullabies.

And so my daughter has been carrying this thing around and she'll click and it'll sing a song to her and she loves it. And she's figured out you just turn its tail if you wanna have it sing a song or do a story for you. But, like, she was getting a little like, at nighttime, she was getting Like, oh, I'm, you know, little unhappy being in here by myself. So we got her this thing, and it's so cool. You can even record yourself reading a story on it So that you can have, like, oh, she wants mom and dad to read her story in the middle of the night. She can just twist the little tail and have mom and dad read the story to the speaker.

It's very cool. So I I love technology stuff, and, like, this is I I don't know. If you got kids, this thing is so neat. The fact that it sings all these songs, and it's been her, like, new favorite thing. She takes it everywhere with her, and she's always singing the songs. So, And it's cheap too. Awesome. $17.

It's really nice. That's that's awesome. I'm going to sick pick Another hot sauce. Well, I'm gonna also request that you send me your hot sauce recommendations because I've been getting so many. This one is the heartbeat hot I've had I don't know. I've had the, maybe I should maybe I should sick pick rid. Each of them individually, but, I'm gonna sick pick the dill pickle serrano one right now. I've I've had the, the pineapple one in the past, and This one's awesome. It's a really good bottle. Nice, like, tiny little nozzle where you can it's got, like, a good squeeze control on it. Like, you're not just kinda rid. I don't know. It's got, like, a good good good squeeze control on it. It's made in Canada. So if you can find it, it also has been on Hot Ones, I'm pretty sure. So You probably will recognize it if you're a fan of Hot Ones. So heartbeat hot sauce, dill pickle serrano. Check it out. Super good. Do you have a favorite episode of Hot Ones? I don't I don't watch I don't watch all of it that much anymore. I've I don't know. I used to watch it every now and then, but, like, I kinda get the point. Right? Yeah. Yeah. The Matty Matheson one is one of my favorites. Rich. Oh, yeah. You like him? Yeah. I really like Manny Mastin.

I'm trying to I really like the Gordon ones. Gordon. Yeah. The Gordon ones are because he rid. Yeah. Because he starts to cook.

That's a good one. I I need to maybe get back into that. It's I don't I rid. I don't necessarily love the ones where they're huge celebrities, but more just, like, hilarious people. Yeah. Yeah. It depends on who the guest is. Yeah. I think that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Rid shameless plugs. Westboss.comforward/courses.

You can see a list of all the training courses that I provide. You can learn JavaScript, CSS, rid React, Gatsby.

I have one called beginner JavaScript, which is a fun exercise heavy approach to learning modern JavaScript. You name it. There's a list of all the courses, a bunch of free ones on there as well. If you want to take a take a test and see if you like the way I teach, use coupon code syntax of $10 off any of those courses. Yeah.

I'm only going to shamelessly plug level up tutorials dot com. That's the, site that I have been working on for my entire career. Whereas, I was just realizing that we are coming up on the 10 year anniversary of Laloft tutorials. Isn't it? That's nuts. Wow.

I I'm I'm just shocked about this. So many I didn't even know it. Somebody on my team was like, Hey, Scott. We're we're coming up on the 10 year anniversary. I was like, wait. What? Really? What what are you talking about? Actually, I I think we've already passed the 10 year anniversary because I started it in February of 2012. So, level up tutorials dot rid. There's a new tutorial series every single month. It is a subscription based service where we have a new series that comes out kind of like a magazine subscription. The course that is coming out today, as in is already out by the time you're listening to this is in Svelte three d. We use physics engines. We use, 3 JS. We talk about The basics of getting up and running within three d and kind of understanding the landscape and navigating it, it's really rid. Cool. But most importantly, it's awesome. It's very fun. By the end of it, you're gonna be feeling like, man, I wanna make all of these really neat Examples. I wanna experiment with this. I wanna create some things for 3 d on the web. So check it out at leveluptutorials.com.

If you sign up to become a pro, you'll become, rid. You'll get access to a new tutorial series every single month, including all the ones that already exists. Buffalouptutorials.com.

Thanks so much. Alright. Thank you for tuning in, and we'll catch you on Monday. Peace.

Peace.

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